Binance: 50% Yield on Hive

in LeoFinance12 days ago (edited)

If you can't explain the yield you are the yield

A meaningless catchphrase espoused by Bitcoin maximalists.
But there is some truth to it.
We should, in fact, know how things work.
Especially in an industry that subsidizes scams at an exponential pace.
Ignorance breeds unsustainability; whether by accident or intelligent design.

Uhhhh, wut?

Yesterday mrtats commented on my blog something about 50% yields on Hive. I didn't 100% know what he was talking about, but clearly it seems to be these flex accounts on centralized exchanges, particularly Binance Flex. So I've finally come to the conclusion that I can no longer ignore these yields and need to figure them out. 50% is absurdly high... how could they possibly benefit by offering our network a rate this high? I did what any responsible adult would do: asked AI and blindly trusted everything it told me.

Yield_Sign.jpg

How to provide yield in exchange for liquidity 101

  • Staking and Validator Rewards:

We already know this is not what Binance is doing in this particular case, but it's worth pointing out that it is an option for the lower yield assets. Binance takes the tokens and stakes them on behalf of the user. They earn stake-based yield and provide the user a cut of that yield. We know this isn't happening because Hive curation would be hard-pressed to even offer 10%, let alone 50% (and that doesn't even include downvote risk).

  • Lending to Borrowers:

We also know that this is probably not what's happening. Who in their right mind would borrow Hive for more than 50% yield? This can only happen if traders are irresponsibly long or short, which isn't a thing right now. It would be much easier and cheaper to simply use the perps market at these prices.

  • DeFi Yield Farming and Liquidity Pools:

Also not happening.
Hive doesn't have any LPs that even come close to 50% at the moment. And even if it did there'd be an impermanent loss risk that needs to be accounted for and deducted from the flex yield.

  • Proprietary Trading or Arbitrage:

Hm? What's this?

Binance may use deposited assets for internal trading strategies, such as arbitrage across exchanges or markets. By exploiting price differences, they generate profits, part of which can be passed on as yields to users.

This is less transparent but can contribute to high yields, especially in volatile markets.

Ah ha! A contender!

Something like arbitrage could be disproportionately profitable to Binance if they have access to liquidity that we don't have access to. The obvious example here would be UpBit's Korean exchange, where the only entities outside of the South Korean population allowed to interact with the market are vetted and whitelisted by hand.

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Looking at current market conditions on an aggregator shows that Binance accounts for 50% of all Hive liquidity and there's very little spread between UpBit and the rest of the world (which should be the standard but isn't). This could be hinting at aggressive arb strategy ono Binance's part. Or maybe not... well probably not considering our volume is only a couple million dollars total. There's no way to make up the difference with those kinds of numbers. The point here is that it works for more volatile markets, and Hive is quite volatile and often lacks liquidity due to the staking mechanics.

  • Stablecoin Lending and Market Demand

Hive is not a stablecoin... so this is not happening.

  • Fees: Binance may charge fees on staking or lending, reducing the net yield for users.

Good to note but not good enough to boost gross yield to 50%.

  • Market Conditions: Yields fluctuate based on supply and demand for borrowing, staking rewards, or DeFi activity. For instance, during bullish markets, borrowing demand may spike, increasing yields.

AKA don't expect 50% flex yields to last.
It's "flexible" for a reason.

image.png

Personally unsatisfied with these answers

So I have to delve deeper and probe the AI to ask more specific questions.

  1. Tell the AI we are talking about Hive (not the mining company)
  2. Remind the AI Hive has low liquidity.
  3. Point out that perps funding rates are not elevated right now.
  • Promotional Boost for Liquidity:

Binance may be subsidizing the 50% APY as a promotional campaign to attract liquidity to HIVE, a low market cap coin. This could involve using platform funds or fees to inflate yields temporarily, encouraging deposits and trading volume on Binance, especially for a social blockchain aiming for Web3 adoption.

the-what.jpg

So... yeah...

I was actually kind of taken aback by the first answer it spit out. It was basically like, "Hey maybe Binance is losing money on purpose here." Which ironically enough is the best answer so far. This is a classic "loss leading" strategy. Binance anticipates they'll need Hive in the future for some reason (or just want to pump the token and/or get it adopted by more users).

Why would Binance want more Hive on their platform?

Well a corporation like Binance already knows that when Hive pumps the funding rate goes drastically negative (often reaching the -2% cap within a single candle). Offering 50% yields could mean that even though the funding rate is normal today they are making a bet that delta-neutral strategies can still turn a profit on average over the year.

Example:

  • Hive pumps to 50 cents.
  • Funding rate is -2% (ticks every 4 hours).
  • Reclaiming 50% yield only takes 25 ticks (100 hours per year).

Meaning the liquidity on their platform would be used to long the perps market while shorting the spot market (sell real Hive to go long on fake Hive and scoop up all the funding rate rewards while bridging the gap between the real asset and the derivative).

Reputation

It's also possible that Binance is more concerned with their perps market reputation than anything else. Again this means they need to have a lot of the underlying asset so they can peg the derivative to the underlying, and they can acquire exposure to the underlying without accepting the risk of the underlying though the yield mechanic (aka paying users yield so that they are the ones accepting the underlying risk while Binance can use those tokens to hedge and stabilize the platform).

clay-punk-hive.png

Why is this such a powerful strategy for Hive specifically?

Well because Hive is notoriously illiquid due to the 13-week staking mechanic on chain. The ability to short Hive allows anyone to sell their locked Hive by proxy as a perpetuals contract before the real Hive is unlocked. If I want to sell 20k Hive today I can short the market for 20k, and it doesn't matter if number goes up because my actual Hive that isn't unlocked yet is also going up in value (completely negating the value lost from the short). This is an advanced tactic to employ leverage to reduce risk rather than increase it (hedge).

This in turn creates a delta-neutral trading strategy in which locked tokens can be sold today without having to wait. The only question is what APR we're paying to get that privilege. The market has spoken, and the market has told Binance that the premium on Hive shorting is off the charts, which means they might want to employ a loss-leading strategy to get more on the their platform so they can farm the shorts at a later date (because pumps are completely random and unpredictable).

Conclusion

I have no idea how or why Binance can actually offer over 50% yields on Hive, but I have some ideas. Best case scenario they are planning something for our token that requires wider scale adoption and liquidity. Worst case scenario they want to power up those tokens and attack the chain again (unlikely). My bet is on farming the perps market. Binance is betting on a bull market. Aren't we all?

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Bitcoin maxis are spot on.

You told me same thing when I said cub paying 67% in 2021. You said I was wrong when I said it would fail. 50% is not sustainable at all. It’s simple fact, if ur paid like that it’s because ur taking huge risk. That’s all yield is. The more risk the higher it is. It’s not about bitcoin maxis. It’s a tale as old as time itself.

Seems like you missed the part where I explicitly state that the premium to short Hive at key moments is exponentially greater than 50% APR. This is a ZERO risk proposition, and bringing up CUB is an irrational distraction from the actual issue here.

A 2% funding rate is 4380% APR and spirals toward infinity on the APY scale.
That's a zero systemic-risk situation because the yield is being paid for by individual clients.
What exactly is going to fail?
Binance?
Hive?

You think Binance is going to bankrupt itself offering flex yield on a rank 400 token?
You think Hive is going to fail when Hive isn't the entity providing the yield?
This is nonsense.


You've basically ignored everything I've said in the OP and knee-jerk reacted with a pre-programed response.
Normally you'd be correct.
But you're not.

It's like saying 15%-20% yield on HBD is unsustainable and will fail within a year or two when we've already been offering the yield for 5 years and the debt ratio hasn't gone up at all. The theory was good until it was proven wrong in the field. Binance isn't going to bankrupt itself offering a high yield on a relatively unknown asset. The goal is to find out why they are doing it not knee-jerk react as to why it's unsustainable or not.

"You've basically ignored everything I've said in the OP and knee-jerk reacted with a pre-programed response.
Normally you'd be correct."

LOL

You are keeping me smiling with how you are expressing things.

!PIMP !LADY !PIZZA

Could they also be playing HBD arb? :)

I considered this but highly unlikely considering volume there is much lower than upbit and it's pretty damn hard to turn a profit on conversions. We already have our own on-chain experts that do this so competition would be quite stiff.

And they would be broadcasting from the same locations as the nodes, so pretty hard to front run that. ;)

"I have no idea how or why Binance can actually offer over 50% yields on Hive, but I have some ideas."

I love this sentence. It completely explains to me why I also feel the same way about this post.

Thanks!

Naked shorts was gonna be my guess.
It's better to pay the yield than to have moon the price to cover.

We seriously need a nyknyc day.
Why did those stop?
Oh, yeah, rich people entered the market and outnumber the freedom lovers.

You don't need collateral if you're naked shorting.
That's why it's naked.

Or maybe you're implying that they are naked shorting and they are trying to correct the issue... which I would also take issue with considering that the demand to short Hive (when it pumps) is way higher than the demand to long it for reasons already stated (the ability to sell locked stake by proxy).

You need hive if your short has to deliver.
I'm guessing it's cheaper to pay the yield, cover the short this time, and roll the delivery over to next time.
Which digs a hole that will eventually collapse the exchange.
That is how crapitalism works, profit now, worry about consequences later.
Keep kicking the can.

Did you debunk the math of chapter 9?

Which digs a hole that will eventually collapse the exchange.

Bro Binance got fined $4.3B by the SEC and didn't even flinch.
Hive has a $100M market cap that can be controlled by $1M.
I don't even know where to begin with this statement.

Right, how quick does the price go up if you need to deliver 100k hive that you don't have?
We'd have to know the internal volumes on the exchange to know where the price would go IF a large run on the bank was to occur.
There can't be that many people using binance, there's less than 500m hive with half of it locked up in multimonth delivery times.
Better to pay the yield than to get caught with their pants down.

You're the CEO of a multi-billion dollar corporation.
You've got a good thing going here.
But hey you know what might be a good idea?
Shorting low-liquidity assets that have been known to go x1000 for like no reason.
Putting the entire company at risk in exchange for a few pennies in return.

You need to explain why Binance would naked short assets they don't have.
During the parabolic bull market period of a 4-year cycle that literally everyone is aware of.
That's not their business model.
They aren't a hedge fund shorting GME or AMC (stocks that should arguably die via fundamentals).
The risk vs reward simply doesn't add up as far as I'm concerned.
Something else is going on here.

I'd like to know how they keep it all balanced, too.
How much of what comes in will never leave?
What happens when one coin goes up against other coins and people withdraw more than what has been put in?
How do you get more of xx when folks trade btc for it and you don't have enough to cover withdrawals?
It must be a nightmare keeping all that balanced.

And, again, a nyknyc day would expose all that.
I'll be soooo glad when vsc comes online to expose the fraud in cex's.
No fraud there, all deposits are fully backed by matching assets put up to insure the withdrawal.
(Which I also don't fully understand.)

I hope a response is coming to the debunking of the chapter 9 question.
How does an ever increasing amount of profits resolve once the crowd has nothing left to pay them?

such a great post. Thank you for the information.
I don't trust Binance because of the hostile steem stakeover attempt.
But i have some Hive at Binance at stake für the 50%. Not a big number. But enough to make a few hive in a few months. So far i earned around 200 Hive in the last months. The yield was even higher at 81% APR in January. Its cooling down already.

best scenario = most likely
thats my take away from this
time to get me an 'I <3 Binance' bumper sticker

I'm on the fence but if not most likely then still very significantly likely.
Even if it's 25% I like those odds.

I've been tracking Binance for weeks but I fell into the temptation of putting my own Coins there

That won’t end well

Thanks for the insight. I was just hearing about the 50% myself and kind of lamenting the fact that Binance US doesn't have it listed. Plus my account is likely not KYCd if it still even exists.

Yeah I miss my Binance account it's the best exchange that was copied (UI) by legit everyone in the business.

Facts!

The best-case scenario is a big win for us.

!PIZZA

!BBH

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I see that Binance.us is legal in the state of Washington is Hive 50% yield available on Binance.us? Sounds like Binance.us is a restricted version of Binance International

Yeah Hive doesn't even exist on Binance.US this opportunity is not available to most of us including me.

I am late to this party, interestingly enough Binance listed Hive in BinanceTR that is why there is a HIVE/TRY pair.

Thanks for confirming it! I searched all pairs on Binance.us and couldn't find it.

Yeah it's quite unfortunate... maybe if we get some pump action we'll get noticed and taken more seriously.

PIZZA!

$PIZZA slices delivered:
@geneeverett(3/5) tipped @valued-customer (x2)
rzc24-nftbbg tipped edicted

Come get MOONed!

Binance usually doesn't do anything randomly, I agree when you say they have a plan beyond that.

Yeah I think that kind of yield would be good to be true

I'd like to think it's the bullish case. Something is brewing if they are willing to give that high of an APR!

Those are perfectly decent explanations, thanks a ton. Btw, I'm also enjoying the 50% APR on some of my liuid hive, and when a friend pointed me the apr was in that range, that meme was the first thing that came to my mind. 😂 Cheers! !BEER


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